Curious NL Hand - Help!
Update: See this post for results.
OK, I’ve been given permission to post this from the Poker Princess (I upgraded her to Poker Goddess, at least temporarily, after walking me through this hand). Basically, I want some input from other people here, and so does she, so if you don’t want to help me, do it for her. Think of it as “2+2 without the attitude”. You can also think of it like how some other Professional Poker Players(TM) post tricky hands in magazines and such. Yeah, just like that. Oh, and pretend you didn’t read my previous post.
1/2 NL on Party ($200 max buyin). MP has $260 and I’m in LP (CO+1) with $180.
UTG limps, MP raises to $7 and I call with
I have no real reads on MP. He’s new, less than 25 hands (PokerAce hasn’t given me any stats on him yet). He won a multiway pot but didn’t do anything tricky.
Flop comes
Question 1: What would you do here?
My thinking here was that he had a highish pocket pair or A-high (say AK or AJ), probably suited. I didn’t put him on QQ because I had one. I figured my hand was best here and wanted to keep him around.
The turn brings the
He proceeds to check raise me to $50.
I am now confused. Obviously a check raise sends alarms. I go through what he could have. I’m still thinking ace with high kicker or high pair. 23? No, he wouldn’t raise pre-flop with that. KK? JJ? Possibly because those would warrant a pre-flop raise. 55? Maybe. But a $5 raise pre-flop? That’s odd alone, even more so since he’s out of position. It would appear that the turn helped, but could he have been slow playing something from the flop?
Question 2: What do you do here?
I thought he was trying to buy the pot right there, so I called.
The
Question 3: What do I do?
Results will follow later.
Any advice would be appreciated. I can handle it, even if it’s “Played. Poorly. On. All. Streets.” (which I don’t think it was). Thanks.
July 27th, 2005 at 2:40 pm
Ok, as I’ve said, I’d play the flop the exact same way as you did. No reason to bet a monster hand right then, especially if you think you might get a bet on the turn from him.
However, I think you misplayed 4th street. If you put him on KK, JJ, A5, AK, AJ, AT and not really AA, QQ, 44, 55, you need to put the pressure back on him, especially if you think he’s trying to steal the pot. I would raise to $100 even, myself. This commits your chips, BUT you know you’re going to call an all-in re-re-raise, but I think with top two on a rainbow board, you’re going to do this anyway (I know I probably do too), so might as well make him think about what you have, and then call your remaining chips if you have to ($65 into a $300 pot is an easy call here) at that point.
But if he’s stealing, or has KK / JJ / AK you may take the pot down right there.
July 27th, 2005 at 3:02 pm
Question #1: I like to put in a small raise here(more than double, but not huge), if only because I don’t know where I stand, and I’m a little pansy that doesn’t like to disguise this type of hand. Not likely that he’s holding aces or queens, but if he’s holding 5’s(also not likely due to the PF raise) he won’t stick around. That still leads to a huge decision if he decides to push. Once you call his raise and continue to give him the lead, you’re pretty much committed(not monetarily, but come on, top two pair? Mentally, I’d be committed. Ha, no funny intended) to this hand. My feeling, anyhow.
Question #2: I can’t see folding this hand here, so a reraise is in order. If you’re calling in hopes of improving, well, you might as well put him to the test and see what he does. Once again, even though you lead out, you’ve given him the lead by just calling his check raise.
Question #3: By this time, he’s raised, bet on the flop, check-raised on the turn, and bet out HUGE on the river. I can’t imagine he’d play KK like this with that on the early streets with an ace on board. I also can’t imagine that he’d check raise you with JJ on the turn with an ace and a queen on the flop. He’s shown a shit-ton of strength, and personally, I’d think that I was beat. But, I would have a tough time getting away from this hand from the way it was played. Call, and hope he doesn’t have QQ or AA. But he probably does.
What hands beat you here? AA, QQ, JJ, K10, 55, and 44?
Personally, I don’t think that K10 is all that unreasonable given the way he played it. The continuation bet on the flop hoping to take it right there. The check-raise on the turn with one to come. And the push with the nuts on the river. Stinks of a poorly played rivered nuts, but what do I know?
July 27th, 2005 at 3:32 pm
I’m far from a great NL cash game player, but here are my thoughts:
Flop: A lot of players will make a weak lead here with a really strong hand like QQ because it looks like a continuation bet and because they want to build the pot now to keep you around. If you’ve called with an A he knows he’s going to get a call or a raise from you and he can create a big pot for the set. The other possibility is that he’s making a real continuation bet because he missed and he’s hoping to just pick it up. Either way, I think a raise is in order to figure out where you are. Even though you have a good hand, it’s not so bad to pick up a $27 pot here. Still, I don’t think the call is terrible in position, but you don’t really have much info on him. I think he could have raised pre-flop with a lot of hands after UTG limped because he could be trying to isolate him or make sure he’s not limping a monster.
Turn: Maybe this is my problem with NL, but honestly, I like your call here because you’re either way behind or way ahead. If he’s semi bluffing a big pair or a gutshot, so be it, you busted his ass and if he hits it, well, that’s poker. To me, that check raise screams set, either he’s cashing in on the pot he created on the flop and turn bet he induced, or he just hit a set of 5s, but it’s tough to lay down your hand and I don’t blame you for seeing the river, knowing he’s probably going to give up if he’s bluffing, or pay you of with AK or any other two pair.
River: I think I can fold here. Pre-flop raise, bet on the flop, check-raise on the turn, push out of position on the river, yeah you’re going to be folding a winner here occasionally, but you’re saving money in the long run. He has to know you’re going to call so it’s unlikely that it’s a bluff, he also knows you’re strong because you’ve called him twice, once when he check-raised. He knows he’s paying off a bigger set if you have one, but if he checks and you move in, he’s calling anyway so he’s making the bet.
If you called on the river, and I assume you did, I think that was your only mistake. I might have raised on the flop, but I don’t think it’s horrible to call either.
July 27th, 2005 at 4:48 pm
I think I would have re-raised on the turn like a lot of people, but if i still played it the way you did, i would have an *extremely* hard time folding on the river.
My gut, after reading this, keeps putting him on AJs. His hand wasn’t the strongest and he wanted to end the hand, so he check-raises on the turn. Then, the river gives him two pair, and now he’s suddenly been given a miracle card. So, he pushes, thinking he’s beaten your AK and that you will have to call.
Of course, this could be the worst analysis in the world, so I would not deem this course of action as the bee’s knees.
July 27th, 2005 at 6:31 pm
He’s got A 5 suited. I’m all in after he check raises on the turn.
July 27th, 2005 at 6:42 pm
I think you have to take into account that you were playing on PartyPoker, and he very well could have could have absolute garbage.
I probably would have raised on the turn.
July 27th, 2005 at 7:15 pm
I think your play on the flop was fine - a 1/2 pot bet from him reads like a continuation bet, so you can’t get any real feel from the bet, and I’d prefer to smooth call this myself (you have a very strong hand) and hope for a good bet from him on the turn that I can raise and take the pot away.
Your turn bet seemed reasonable (something I would do myself), but the check-raise is a huge alarm for me. I can really only put him on a few hands at that point: A4s/A5s/AK seem like the most likely hands. Check-raising with AA/QQ would seem really out of whack, as you would want to encourage your opponent to stay in the hand. 44/55 (the other set possibilities) seem possible, but unlikely to be played that way preflop. I would probably just call his checkraise, and see how the river develops. Admittedly, I’m not a very good NL cash game player, so some of the arguments here in this thread make me think that maybe you should actually be raising immediately back, but any reasonable raise would require you to pot commit yourself, so an all-in would be the only real re-raise on the turn you could make.
I don’t know how I would handle the river. I would probably call the bet, but I’d be almost certain I was beat, and be praying that my opponent was overplaying trash. JJ would be my great fear here - the check-raise on the turn meant to push you out of the hand if you were holding Ace-rag, and now he just spiked his miracle card.
July 27th, 2005 at 9:25 pm
I push the turn. If he has me, then he’ll give it back because I can’t think of any hand whatsoever that he could check-raise that turn with that has AQ beat AND isn’t the worst played hand ever except for 44. At 1/2 NL on Party, you have to pay off sets when you have 2 pair, but at least make him pay if he doesn’t have it.
July 27th, 2005 at 11:39 pm
I don’t ever play NL except in free tourneys using points earned playing limit, but the one motto I like to live by is ” a set is a good hand, two pair is not”. All I really mean by this is if you would have had QQ and lost to AA, you tip your cap and go rebuy. I would have folded on the turn, to be honest. That said, I’m a very conservative player who looks to double up in tourneys. In a cash game, your play makes a lot more sense to me.
July 28th, 2005 at 6:09 am
I’m with Al. I’ve had it BEATEN into me so many times, I live by the mantra: NEVER SLOW PLAY TWO PAIR.
(I also say never say never, because I will slow play two pair when heads up with AK and an AK on the board…..but excepting that situation….NEVER SLOW PLAY TWO PAIR at a full ring….yadda yadda yadda…)
July 28th, 2005 at 6:56 am
My gut says A5 or AJ if this was Party. However, I’ve seen some tricky set play from people at this level. Top two has been a stack reliever for me, it seems to run into sets too many times with similar betting patterns.
But folding the river is way too weak-tight after calling the check-raise.
Call and pray.
July 28th, 2005 at 8:01 am
Donk probably had JJ.
July 28th, 2005 at 8:47 am
We’re talking about PartyPoker, right? JJ is to good for him. Figure he’s on a K10, raising because it’s soooooted.
NL really isn’t my game, but I have to side with the “push after the check-raise” crowd. It seems to me that, as soon as he check-raises, you have to decide whether you’re willing to pay off a set anyway. If he has a straight (even by the river) you can tag that fish and get your money back some other night.
If you flat call the check-raise, he’s almost obligated to push his chips in on the river; if you can’t put him on the set, and it looks like you’re going to have to pay the rest of your stack to find out anyway, you might as well be the one making the bet.
Just two cents from a random lurker…
July 28th, 2005 at 8:54 am
I thought about this hand some more when I was on the bus home last night, because that’s what I do on the bus, think about poker. The more I thought about it, the more I like raising the flop. As a couple of other people have already said, I think the slowplay is a mistake, it happens way too often that that free card hurts you. If he’s making a lead with a good hand, raise him and make him expose it. If he’s making a continuation bet, why give him a free card? If he doesn’t hit his hand on the turn, your action is going to shut down anyway. Imagine if he’s holding 55 and the 5 doesn’t come after you smooth called his flop bet. He checks, you bet, he folds and you win the same amount anyway.
I think you ought to be raising the flop to get more info and to make him pay to draw to whatever he’s got, even if it is only two outs.
The more I play, and the more I do exactly what you did on this hand, the more I agree that slowplaying has to be reserved for really big hands, sets at a minimum.
July 28th, 2005 at 11:49 am
I think the slow play on the flop made your read much more difficult. By simply calling the flop, the hand options for your opponent remain large. If you raise the flop and your called, then you put him on a draw or Ax (possibly AJ, AK, A10). Then when the 5 came down on the turn you’d know this card didn’t help him. Playing the hand the way you played it, I would’ve pushed on the turn, if he caught his set, lucky him (we have all caught the turn set for big pots, so i suppose it’s just karma). Otherwise, I would’ve raised on the flop to narrow your oppenents card options. When you catch two pair on the flop, especially when it’s raise pre-flop, you almost always have to represent a big hand (which you had) to get a better idea of your opponents hand since there was a raise pre-flop.
July 28th, 2005 at 12:55 pm
You need to raise on the flop to see where you are. I would much rather win (or lose) the pot right here. Bet on the turn in fine. My weak tight butt would fold on the river but curious as to what happened.
July 28th, 2005 at 12:58 pm
set of 4’s?
July 28th, 2005 at 1:00 pm
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August 2nd, 2005 at 12:16 pm
KTs or JJ, perhaps the 4s.
Hate your cold-calling twice then again on turn. You have no idea where you stand, thus making this hand very hard to play. Somewhere you have to come over the top with top 2 pair if you’re just going to call down anyway.