Minneapolis Club Tournament 2005-04-29
Editor’s Note: I’m looking for some advice in here, if you play MTTs and/or just want to offer an opinion but don’t want to wade through the whole story, can you please jump down to the section entitled “Busting Out”? Thank you. -Ed.
Screwed
The day started out ominously. It was Friday and I was going to lose vacation again if I didn’t take a day off. I’ve “taken” 4 days off so far this year but this time I decided that the Mrs. and I could enjoy a day together before I went off to the poker tournament later that night.
Well, we didn’t have a very good day off, which put me in a fairly “off” mood. Then I checked my email and I see I had a comment from
11th commandment: thou shalt not miss a Gourds show in your hometown.
Verily I say unto thee, you will be punished by bad beats until you repent.
Great, now I’m screwed.
Arrival
The tournament started at 7pm and I was meeting up with Dirk to carpool. The club allows cigars in one of their rooms, coincidently the room with the side games, so in preparation I went to the tobacco store near my house in search of a cigar. The store, which is about 20% bigger than my walk in closet, has changed a bit since I was last there. They’ve basically gone to 90% cigarettes and move to more expensive cigars. I was looking for a simple Aurturo Fuente 8-5-8. I didn’t see them and asked the woman there and she asked me to spell “Arturo” so she could look it up on the computer. Ok, not exactly an expert…Thankfully I remembered where another store was and was able to pick up a couple and I was set (and I come to find out they have a great selection).
I make it to Dirk’s and we head to Dave’s house to convoy. We make a roundabout way down the the venerable Minneapolis Club, despite taking the freeway during the time leading up to a Twins game and an Elton John concert. My friend Jason was playing in this too and we met up at the registration desk.
It’s a $100 buyin, NLHE tournament. They were going to limit it to 120 people, but they didn’t quite fill up this time. The clientele is mainly people in the finance industry. There’s some big money in the room. There’s also a lot of “friends” who are poker players.
We sign in and hit the bar. A Macallan 12, neat, is in my hand a couple of minutes later and then the food spread opens up. We grab a bite and look around.
This event draws a lot of repeat visitors, so a lot of faces were familiar. In addition to that, many of the people have been at Pete’s or Dirk’s home games. Due to this I, Mr. Introvert, spend some time shaking hands and making some small talk with people.
It’s around this time that we check out the table assignments in detail only to find out that Jason (2s), Dirk (6s) and myself (8s) were at the same table.
Great.
We also noted that one guy that made the final table at the last Mpls Club tourney, and has played at Dirk’s home tourney was at our table. We’ve dubbed him the Suckout King (SOK). He is a huge calling station, but has this huge ability to suckout on you. He also plays about 90% of the hands so you never quite know what he has. He’s also very aggressive. He tends to overplay hands, but he always puts you to the test early, so it makes it tough to play against him. He’s in the 4s.
The 5s is a totally newbie. He has to be told how to play, deal, etc. Every hand. He knows what beats what, but he doesn’t really know “how” to play.
There were about 105 people who made it this time. They tried doing 8 person tables, but ours ended up with 9 crowded around a table. The upside was that he was one of the sponsors and when he showed up late he bought the table a round.
Macallan #2 coming my way.
Start
The cards are in the air and on the third hand Jason and SOK get involved in a hand where SOK tried to put Jason all in. Jason folded, deciding that his hand probably wasn’t good enough to go broke on the 3rd hand (it was a tough laydown).
I misdeal on my second deal. Flipped over an ace while dealing it out.
Our table was really tight for a long time. We started with T1000 and nobody was too willing to risk much for a while. Our table actually had a good number of people who knew what they were doing. I’m holding pretty even for a while, then drop down a bit. I’m doing OK and feeling that I can hold my own here.
Because Dirk was at our table, we had two decks going to speed up the action. He like a well run game, and he always provides it, even when he’s not technically running it. We saw a ton of hands compared to a lot of other tables. We are able to grind out a couple people who probably would have lasted longer had we just had 1 deck.
Dirk proceeds to stay alive, doubling through SOK, through a huge suckout. Dirk had him dominated, QJ vs J6 (IIRC), and SOK, of course, flopped a 6. Dirk resucked a Q on the river and stayed alive.
We saw that Sunglasses Guy from Pete’s home game was there too. He was the only one in the room with sunglasses. He also had zero emotion and would not speak at all. He seems like a nice guy and he made the final table, but these games don’t really warrant sunglasses. Oh, and they’re social events, smile a little in between hands or something, everybody else is being social and it’s a little offputting to not be social back. Just a thought.
Jason busts before the break. I don’t remember the details. I have trouble enough remembering my own hands much less anybody else’s. Oh, and I didn’t have my notepad. So, yeah, I need to remember to bring that if I’m going to give decent reports. Sorry ’bout that.
We make the break and we have 6 people at our table. They try to rebalance them when you get down to four (and I use “try” becuase they don’t that great a job of it, but it was much better this time that last). Shortly after that, we lose the guy between Dirk and I and we’re down to 5.
Dirk is on a smallish stack in the SB when it’s folded around to him. He raises 3xBB or so and I look at my cards and see
Misplaying a Big Stack
I move to the new table with the big stack and everybody mentions it. I sit to the left of Dave, one of our group. Dirk basically becomes the TD and starts coloring people up. I’m the only one at our table who gets a yellow, 1K, chip. The table starts talking about the intimidation chip.
I proceed to totally misplay my big stack for at least a half hour.
I did not push anything at all. I did not try to represent anything. I totally misplayed the whole situation. When I sat down, I had people on edge due to my stack, and the table was very passive. It was ripe for plucking. There were many times things were folded around to the blinds who would passively play the hand.
I wasn’t getting any real cards, but with a big stack at a passive table, I didn’t really need cards. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize it and adjust until it was too late.
Losing Half My Stack
Finally I’m getting blinded down a bit, but still with my yellow chip. Unfortunately, there are two others with ones now too. I’m UTG and see ATo and decide to try to buy the pot right there. I look around and raise enough to put the two small stacks all in.
I stare in shock as both call.
I flip over my ATo and wait for the others.
AJo
AQo
Can you say “Dominated”?
Two ways?
The flop brings a T and I’m suddenly way ahead. Turn is a brick and I’m feeling good.
Until the Q hits on the river.
I lose about half my stack on that hand and double up a short stack.
Busting Out (Opinions Please)
A bit later I’m down to T1400 and the blinds are 200/400. We’re down to three tables of 8. They pay the final two tables and I am not the shortest stack in the tourney, there were at least 2-3 others with less than me.
Here’s where I need help from you more experienced tourney players…
Blinds 200/400. UTG+1 has T600 and pushes blind. One caller (probably around T2000) and I look at 66. Damn. Ironically I didn’t really want too see anything so I wouldn’t risk going broke.
I struggled for a bit. I show Jason (who’s sweating me), my cards and give him a look. He has one of those pained looks that was exactly what I was feeling.
I called. Pot is now T2400.
Guy on my left raises T800, which coincidently is exactly what I have left. He is either the big stack or close to it at the table, probably close to T3000-T4000. Blinds fold. The original caller calls and I’m looking at being all in with pocket sixes. I’m getting better than 5:1 on my call (if my math was right) and my hand may still be good. Of course, if I’m wrong, I’m out just short of the money.
What do I do?
I called.
I lost.
I think it got down to the river though, but there were about 25 draws on the board and I never improved.
Original short stack busted too so I went out in 23rd, 7 short of the money.
The question is: Given stack sizes, closeness to the money, etc, should I have just folded pre-flop?
Side Games
After busting out I went to the side game room to see what was happening. One table was in the middle of a SNG. The other had 7 people, 4 of which were from our group. It was like that scene in “Rounders” where all the people are playing at the same table in AC. I decided to pass on the games and went back to watch the final tables.
Dry Side Pots
Here’s one thing that bugs me every time at these things: People don’t know basic tournament strategy. I’m not a MTT player by any means, but when it gets close to the money, I know the strategy is to not bet into a dry side pot. Don’t drive out others that may help bust out a small stack.
Time and time again I saw people betting into dry side pots which sometimes caused a short stack to stay in when one of the other guys would fold. I don’t understand what people are thinking. They are so intent on winning one hand that they loose sight of the bigger picture: knocking people out and getting to the money.
*sigh*
Overview
I had a great time again, and this time I feel I played pretty well, at least for most of the time. I totally misplayed a big stack and it cost me. I had the opportunity to steal a lot, but I got weak and waited for cards.
I never did get a chance to enjoy the cigars that I went out of my way to get, or play in any side games. This time most people left after they got busted out. I think part of it is that the tourney is on a Friday night and people are tired. Last time it was in the middle of winter and people have nothing better to do at night than stay warm in a nice private club. This time a couple groups made their way to Canterbury after they busted. Next time I may drive myself so I can leave if I’m out and game conditions aren’t good. I didn’t really need to stay up until 1am and could have been home 3 hours earlier.
With a first prize of close to $2500, I’ll be looking forward to the next one, even if the overall competition is getting better.
April 30th, 2005 at 5:40 pm
Should you have called the raise from your left…yes. I don’t think you had a choice.
Should you have called the T600 with a middle pair in that position. I don’t think so.
I think you MUST either raise or fold.
With that hand in that chip situation I would have pushed. That way I may avoid the raise to your left…force out the blinds..and probably have blind all-in beat.
Your only concern is the initial caller who, very likely, has you racing to the river. If so he may not even call a raise that would leave him with T600.
By allowing more callers to your left you allow a wider variety of overcards into the race and perhaps another, slightly better, middle pair to jump in. I doubt they’d call an all-in.
Just my humble opinion.
April 30th, 2005 at 6:18 pm
Fold preflop.
Either your smaller pair is beat by a higher pair or they have over cards.. Because you aren’t the smallest stack you have a bit of time.
I would look for something stronger.
April 30th, 2005 at 7:16 pm
I’m certainly no expert myself, but I think you have to fold the 66 there. I don’t think you have enough to make the initial caller fold. So, even if you don’t think about the action behind you, you’re probably against an average of at least 3 overcards. I think in this position in the tournament you should wait for a better spot where you are raising first in, and hope to squeak into the money. I would imagine that even if you had to wait until your BB and call a raise versus one person, your EV would be better than here against one random hand and most likely at least two overcards from the first caller.
April 30th, 2005 at 8:08 pm
I probably would’ve played the 66 there, fearing nothing better passing through the pocket with only a few BB left in front of me, but I think I would have played it for an all-in. I wouldn’t be afraid of the initial T600 push, figuring him for an ace or overcards, but I certainly would have liked to isolate him if possible, and by pushing all in, maybe the bigger stack would have avoided tangling with you.
I don’t think I would have folded preflop though. That’s not to say I shouldn’t have folded - just that I personally wouldn’t have
April 30th, 2005 at 9:45 pm
I think I would have folded them preflop - the initial callers’ smooth call would have made me nervous (why didn’t he raise to isolate?), and you have a lot of people with possibly better hands behind you, increasing your chances of busting.
However, since you needed 7 people to get knocked out before making the money, and it sounds like you were short stacked, in the list of 7 shortest stacked, at least, it’s not totally wrong to make a stand right here.
But taking a stand isn’t just calling - what are you going to do when the flop comes? You’re pot committed as it is if you just call, and 66 is a crappy hand multiway, so you’ve got to take a stand if you’re going to play this pot and go all in, forcing other marginal hands to fold and not give them the pot-odds to call. And, even if they hold a hand better than you, there’s a psychological thing to an ‘all-in’ that gives them an extra reason to fold.
So, if you were in the short 7 stacks, you should have pushed, IMHO.
May 1st, 2005 at 12:27 am
Monday morning quarterbacking is always easiest. I’m with G-Rob on this one though, either you’re putting it all in the middle pre-flop or you fold it. And I think everything about this hand is more about the psychology of the table than anything else.
You have Actor #1, who knows he’s about to be blinded out, so he forces the action by going all-in blind from UTG+1. When Actor #2 smooth calls he’s making an error. If he has a monster like KK or AA, you don’t want to leave the opportunity for three more players to come into the pot behind you with drawing hands. So you’ve got to think he’s on something like AK-AQ-AJ or A-10, which he should play the same way as your sixes, either push it all or fold.
This gets me to what I think is the biggest mistake you made here. Showing your cards to your friend. If both you and your buddy are wearing pained expressions, the guy left to act has to assume that you have a decent but not dominant hand.
If he has medium suited connectors like 10-9, J-10 or the like when you flat call that bet you’ve opened the door for him. If he has a medium pair like J-J or 10-10 he has to feel good once he’s seen the look on your face. Now he has the odds to call or, like he did, push harder and reraise. When he reraises there if the first caller has an A-Q or A-J or worse, and is a halfway decent player, he has to fold. Plus if he has sensed your trepidation about your own hand, he might even think you’ll be willing to fold it.
However, if the table is sensing that you’re playing very tight, as might be expected given how you describe your play after moving tables, your reraise all-in would have to send off alarms to the guy on your left. It would be much harder to call off half your stack on suited connectors in that place.
Calling off the rest of your chips with sixes wasn’t a poor play as you were certainly getting decent enough odds to gamble even if there were a higher pocket pair in the group. Plus if you fold you are down to T800 and in the same position as UTG+1 who started this whole mess. Will you really see a better hand than pocket sixes before the blinds take you out? Ideally, though, you wanted to be heads-up or out of the way with a pair that low.
May 1st, 2005 at 7:37 am
Ugh…fold those baby pairs. They’re just no good multi-way. More than half the deck can kill you on the flop, while you have to pray for a two-outer.
I also agree with John about showing the cards to your buddy. If you’re going to play that hand, you have to play it very strong and push right away. That’s the main reason I like looking at my cards as soon as I get them in a live game. It gives me a few more seconds to decide how I’m going to act when the play gets to me.
Of course, I could be setting you up for the Vegas tournament. heh heh
May 1st, 2005 at 6:54 pm
I have done well in a few MTT, and my feeling is to either fold or go all-in pre-flop. If you wish to play it “extra cautiously”, then I would say it is OK to call pre-flop and then fold if you don’t hit your set (or an open ended striaght).
May 2nd, 2005 at 6:49 am
Muck it Chris. Had there been no push behind you then there’s a decision to be made (push or fold), but without having that huge stack anymore the “bully” factor goes out the window and you’re more likely to get called. Read (or re-read) TJ’s suggestions on small PPs. I know its made me more cautious in playing them.
Sounds like a fun tournament though. Great write up!!
May 3rd, 2005 at 9:20 am
There’s a lot of detailed analysis here for what is an extremely trivial fold. There is no question that this is a very, very simple fold. You’re out of position, have no fold equity whatsoever on a raise, and are either dominated or dodging 4 overcards….no way. Take your chances on the blinds, and if you get anything pushable on the button or the cutoff, toss it in then. If the blinds were gonna put you all in 3 hands from then, it might not be so bad, but in this situation, it’s a very simple fold.
May 3rd, 2005 at 9:31 am
after rereading the comments, I have to ask why in the world anyone would advocate the push-or-fold theory here? This is a fold-or-fold situation. The only thing pushing does is take a 5-1 call and make it slightly better than 2-1 and with an expected call from the initial caller, the odds are back up around 3 or 3.5 to 1 should anyone in late position want to call. That’s good enough for a great deal of hands, so the push doesn’t give you any real leverage. It’s still going to be a very enticing call for anyone behind you who looks down at any kind of a hand whatsoever. Also, on a push, the BB is still getting 2.8 to 1 if the rest of the table folds, with only a 600 chip raise possible from the intial caller. This is a SERIOUSLY ugly situation for 66…’cause there’s a good chance you’re gonna find yourself 4 handed to the flop. The push is better than the call, since that play gives anyone trailing in (especially the blinds) phenomenal odds, almost good enough to call with any two cards, but the push is not nearly strong enough to do anything substantial. The push in this situation is a cop out, and nothing more.
I do have to say though that I believe your call after the initial call was correct. Like one response clearly states though, you followed up an incorrect play with a good one.
(Pot odds stated in these posts are fudged estimations due to laziness on my part. They are close enough to illustrate my point, however)